Curse

Skye Marin · Aug 03, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

.... and SF heroway.
.... and Discord heroway.

This is the third time they've showed up, and they'll show up again with another idiotic gimmick build if they're not barred. Heroes excel at micromanagement, even if all they do with that micromanagement is spam skills on recharge. But when your whole bar is crap that gets 99% of its benefit by being spammed on recharge (Tainted, Rotting, Rising Bile, Vile Miasma, Mark of Pain, Barbs...), they do pretty damn well with it.

But didn't human players exploit those builds too?

Even if Heroes are removed from HA, plenty of human players will fill up the Heroway slots and win with it, until another round of nerfs comes around for it, or the meta shifts with the new Gwen skills. The Heroes just have a knack for helping find builds that are easy to run, because that's all they can do. It's easy to run Hexes, and it's easy to run Rit Healer with SR fueling it. These things need to be fixed, regardless of Heroes running it.

Once they are fixed, Heroes will gladly find their place in helping round out short-maned teams in HA, saving set-up time, helping new players to enter PvP, and making Automated Tournaments possible.

LifesRestorer · Aug 03, 2007, 03:20 PM // 15:20

the ability at which they can put on these hexes/tained/death nova is what makes heroes phenominal.

for example, they know who has what hexes, how long they last and when they get stripped off. they are able to know exactly when tainted is about to end on a target, and the same goes for death nova.

they do not need to tab through targets so hexes are applied as soon as they finish, and death nova on minions is gg.

Despozblehero · Aug 03, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

The only argument Ive ever heard for keeping heros is what if "the noobie cant find a team?" Ive said it once ill say it a thousand times. Theres Ziashen if you REALLY NEED to fill that spot to go (yeah theyre not great but no one will design a build around 1 im sure)... Otherwise youre going to want to use that spot for a human player, which should be at least as good as if not better than the "filler" spot... If you cannot get your Guild to help you, try your Alliance, or use your friends list to help you, or PuG to get friends, heck just playing I've had people from the other team that BEAT me say DANG YOU WERE GOOD and add me to their flist, theres too many BETTER options to that argument for Heros to stay. If after EXHAUSTING all those options you still cant get a group, well dont aim for the 8 man arenas then. theres other options for PvPing (*cough* RA).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

But didn't human players exploit those builds too?

Even if Heroes are removed from HA, plenty of human players will fill up the Heroway slots and win with it, until another round of nerfs comes around for it, or the meta shifts with the new Gwen skills. The Heroes just have a knack for helping find builds that are easy to run, because that's all they can do. It's easy to run Hexes, and it's easy to run Rit Healer with SR fueling it. These things need to be fixed, regardless of Heroes running it.

Once they are fixed, Heroes will gladly find their place in helping round out short-maned teams in HA, saving set-up time, helping new players to enter PvP, and making Automated Tournaments possible.

You will NEVER see an 8 man human team run Heroway, What the hero necros can do especially is humanly impossible. A very good group of people MAY be able to win with it but never of the same caliber of the Heros. Hero AI is primarily a PvE tool, and should be made to fit that roll imho, there should be as little of it in PvP as possible (ghostly heros is bad enough sometimes ;p).

Riotgear · Aug 03, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

But didn't human players exploit those builds too?

In the degen hex variant, please find me a human who can micromanage some combination of tainted flesh, hexes on 8 targets, death nova on minions, animating corpses the instant they become available, and spirit transfer on spikes all at the same time.

Discord wasn't abused by human players much at all, it was abused with heroes that would all cast Discord simultaneously on the same target the instant it became available.

Searing Flames was abused by humans but was run at about 90% efficiency with heroes anyway. The only problem with heroes in that is that they were retarded at positioning and would die to SF and SH+Assassin teams when they got nuked.

Skye Marin · Aug 03, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despozblehero

You will NEVER see an 8 man human team run Heroway, What the hero necros can do especially is humanly impossible. A very good group of people MAY be able to win with it but never of the same caliber of the Heros. Hero AI is primarily a PvE tool, and should be made to fit that roll imho, there should be as little of it in PvP as possible (ghostly heros is bad enough sometimes ;p).

Let's talk specifics:

Hexes
These have always been easy to play and easy to spread. The worst offenders will be nerfed. That's already been established.

One of the strongest Hexes used in Heroway is Barbs, which is not hard at all to apply to the called target by a human player. As for reapplication if hexes as they end... well... even humans know not to cast the same hex twice on the same target. A half-decent human player knows what characters are suffering from what conditions or hexes at a glance. Looking at crowd of foes, it's not hard to see which ones have Barbs, Suffering, or Reckless Haste on them at a glance. Hint: anything with extra numbers is Barbs, Suffering only gives -2 degen with a hex, and Reckless Haste is on enemies attacking 25% faster than normal and missing. Anything beyond that is luck. Remember that Soul Reaping fuels Hex spam too. Heroes aren't particularly efficient with their energy, but then again, they really don't have to be.

Tainted Flesh
This is not hard to micro by a human player by any means. Either find the teammate that is not enchanted, suffering from disease, or calling out "Tainted on Two".

Death Nova
Kinda tricky to micro, but far from impossible. Use the 2 second cast time to find your next target. They're easy to spot. It's the minion you created that isn't glowing bright shiny green.

Rit Healing
Mostly fueled by SR. Healing Heroes are, for the most part, only as good as their energy pool. A competent human player in the same slot can heal more efficiently, set up spirits more intelligently, and use Flesh of My Flesh with better success.

Interruption
I haven't seen very many variations of interruption on Heroway bars, aside from the odd Power Drain or Leech Signet, for extra energy management. Because of SR, this extra e-management isn't needed, so the skill slots are given up for more utility skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

In the degen hex variant, please find me a human who can micromanage some combination of tainted flesh, hexes on 8 targets, death nova on minions, animating corpses the instant they become available, and spirit transfer on spikes all at the same time.

Those are the roles of four different Necro Heroes. I'm pretty sure four Human Players with the same SR energy pool can do the same assigned jobs. They might not want to, because it's boring, or because the micro-management effort required is too much for the possible return, but it's definitely possible.

---------------------------------------------------

There's more to the pro-hero argument than simply "help new players":
-Heroes don't waste time setting up
-Heroes don't have to stop to deal with unexpected real life problems
-Heroes don't grief and act like jerks
-Heroes don't ragequit
-Heroes don't take it personally
-Heroes don't cause drama

Andrew Patrick · Aug 03, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

While it may not be your ideal solution, the upcoming build, along with some changes to the new maps, will also limit teams to no more than 2 non-human players (heroes/henchies.) Please provide your feedback in the HA Test weekend forum. Thanks!

God Apprentice · Aug 04, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

While it may not be your ideal solution, the upcoming build, along with some changes to the new maps, will also limit teams to no more than 2 non-human players (heroes/henchies.) Please provide your feedback in the HA Test weekend forum. Thanks!

Thanks for the continued presence Andrew. Hopefully this test weekend garners good feedback.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Aug 04, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

You forgot to remove heroes from GvG.

twicky_kid · Aug 04, 2007, 05:17 AM // 05:17

If you can't play beat the hero's stupid AI you deserve to lose.

If heroes were not in the game you will see such a decline in HA like never before. The only thing even keeping HA going is heroes and the map changes. I much prefer heroes over the super elitist Rank crap that came before heroes. Rank is what caused the decline of HA in the first place. It pushed more and more people out of HA teams. Eventually the "in" crowd got bored and left. In the end there was no one coming up to replace them. Heroes have made it possible for people to get a group and go play where before they were never even given a chance.

You may not like heroes but the truth is its the only thing keeping HA going and ensures there is a steady population coming and going.

TheOneMephisto · Aug 04, 2007, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Let's talk specifics:

Hexes
These have always been easy to play and easy to spread. The worst offenders will be nerfed. That's already been established.

One of the strongest Hexes used in Heroway is Barbs, which is not hard at all to apply to the called target by a human player. As for reapplication if hexes as they end... well... even humans know not to cast the same hex twice on the same target. A half-decent human player knows what characters are suffering from what conditions or hexes at a glance. Looking at crowd of foes, it's not hard to see which ones have Barbs, Suffering, or Reckless Haste on them at a glance. Hint: anything with extra numbers is Barbs, Suffering only gives -2 degen with a hex, and Reckless Haste is on enemies attacking 25% faster than normal and missing. Anything beyond that is luck. Remember that Soul Reaping fuels Hex spam too. Heroes aren't particularly efficient with their energy, but then again, they really don't have to be.

Tainted Flesh
This is not hard to micro by a human player by any means. Either find the teammate that is not enchanted, suffering from disease, or calling out "Tainted on Two".

Death Nova
Kinda tricky to micro, but far from impossible. Use the 2 second cast time to find your next target. They're easy to spot. It's the minion you created that isn't glowing bright shiny green.

Rit Healing
Mostly fueled by SR. Healing Heroes are, for the most part, only as good as their energy pool. A competent human player in the same slot can heal more efficiently, set up spirits more intelligently, and use Flesh of My Flesh with better success.

Interruption
I haven't seen very many variations of interruption on Heroway bars, aside from the odd Power Drain or Leech Signet, for extra energy management. Because of SR, this extra e-management isn't needed, so the skill slots are given up for more utility skills.

You actually are talking about the better players though. He may have been exaggerating that only the best players can run the Heroway build up to par, but it is true that only the better ones can.

Most average or lower players I've seen don't call targets properly, don't use vent effectively, don't have very good coordination, and surely don't effectively watch the battlefield closely enough to see enchanted vs unenchanted minions.

Basically, heroes, when using the optimal builds for them, are better than average or lower players. Nothing new.

God Apprentice · Aug 04, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

If you can't play beat the hero's stupid AI you deserve to lose.

If heroes were not in the game you will see such a decline in HA like never before. The only thing even keeping HA going is heroes and the map changes. I much prefer heroes over the super elitist Rank crap that came before heroes. Rank is what caused the decline of HA in the first place. It pushed more and more people out of HA teams. Eventually the "in" crowd got bored and left. In the end there was no one coming up to replace them. Heroes have made it possible for people to get a group and go play where before they were never even given a chance.

You may not like heroes but the truth is its the only thing keeping HA going and ensures there is a steady population coming and going.

Yes cause rank was mysteriously added 6 months ago. Before then, everything was perfect, right? Please stop crying about "rank elitism" because you can grab Heroes instead of having to actively search for groups a.k.a pugging.

Rank hasn't caused a "decline in HA". Unwanted game types (Kill Count and 6v6) and long periods of time for skill balancing is what has lead to decline.

The thing that keeps HA going is rank. If rank wasn't a reward for winning in HA, would people still do it?

Mental Leteci · Aug 04, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Apprentice

The thing that keeps HA going is rank. If rank wasn't a reward for winning in HA, would people still do it?

I think it's not even rank. They added rank to GvG and it didn't bring that many new players. I'd say it's the emote.

I Brother Bloood I · Aug 04, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Now that killcount is gone u can run mesmers and exploit the stupidity of not waiting out diversion, shame, etc. Unless the heroes are overpowered they shouldnt be removed. And there not. Although they are better then 90% of ha players...

LifesRestorer · Aug 04, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Eventually the "in" crowd got bored and left.

Hello, my name is 6v6. i single handedly wiped out the HA population.

Quote:

In the end there was no one coming up to replace them.

This makes no sense. you complain about 'rank elitism', and once the 'elitists' leave you complain about... well... i'm not entirely sure, it seems you're ranting for no reason.

Quote:

Heroes have made it possible for people to get a group and go play where before they were never even given a chance.

or you cold stop being lazy and impatient and get a proper group. maybe if you didnt think OMFG 6% ON ZAISHEN RESIGN AND RAGEQUIT then you might get somewhere overtime. stop acting like people started at r9. they worked their way up, and if you want it then maybe you should do some work too instead of sitting back watching olias' leet micromanagement

twicky_kid · Aug 05, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

I've been in GW since beta 2004. I've seen all the population influxes in HA and Tombs. I was here when the HA population shrunk to 1 american district and 2 international districts. It was like that for months before it finally recovered because of the next chapter release.

I never said I didn't have rank. I don't wave it in people's face. If you are a good player and want to give HA a try but you don't have rank I'll still take you along. I just know how it was when I didn't have rank and others I know that do not have rank right now. Honestly having r9+ is nothing. I know plenty that got there from IWAY, Blood Spike, spirit spam, ect..... All rank really means is you know the maps in HA. Rank really tells me how much you grinded for it. It means very little about player's skill. I've seen many horrible r9+ players before.

Less players entered into HA after rank was implemented. It shut them out. You had to have rank to get a group. You needed a group to get rank. Its a catch 22. Heroes gave us another option. For the longevity of the game that is a good thing. The more players that have access to HA the better. Take heroes out it will go back to being rank only and eventually die out again like it did last time.

Now as far as Olais is concerned. Yes he can play the bar far better than any human can ever hope to. The reason is because the AI can see everything on the battle field all at one time. A human player cannot because our display was never designed to. There is a thread made about 4 months after GW came out suggesting placement icons of enchantments next to the names on the party window. That was never implemented into the game. That could help a human player immensely. Also a human player cannot see enchantments on a minion besides seeing the green aura or ring. Targeting a minion is a whole other set of issues. This is really, in my point of view, Anet's failure to provide the tools to players that are needed to compete at the same level.

One thing I have learned since Heroes have came is no one complains when they WIN against heroes but they bitch endlessly when they lose. Heroes do have some tools that swings the favor to them on 1 type of play style. Give us the same resources to level the field and go play.

anonymous · Aug 05, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

I voted to keep heros. They are the only good groups new players can get in. At least they can build up experiance while still winning some and getting fame. 8 noobs will get rolled and get no experiance, the blind leading the blind gets everyone nowhere.

TheOneMephisto · Aug 05, 2007, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

One thing I have learned since Heroes have came is no one complains when they WIN against heroes but they bitch endlessly when they lose. Heroes do have some tools that swings the favor to them on 1 type of play style. Give us the same resources to level the field and go play.

Players don't complain when they win or lose to heroes, they complain because they have to play them in the first place.

lol omg wtf bbq hax · Aug 05, 2007, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Keep heroes! NF is all about heroes. atleast make it so if u use a hero u need to control all their skills they do. or something

T-R-A-S-H · Aug 05, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

its too easy to divert tainted flesh

remove heros from gvg and ha.
I forgot something, no one played para spike and zergway as long as heroway was on the way. So I play rather against olias than para shit.

lol omg wtf bbq hax · Aug 06, 2007, 10:35 AM // 10:35

keep heroes the way they are. but Fix the controls. make it so the controller has to control everything they do. so its fair like his playing as another human?